From bkuhn_and_fontana at ebb.org Mon Jun 30 01:32:07 2025 From: bkuhn_and_fontana at ebb.org (Richard E. Fontana & Bradley M. Kuhn) Date: Sun, 29 Jun 2025 18:32:07 -0700 Subject: What's next? References: <87v7oervfk.fsf@ebb.org> Message-ID: <87ikkerp48.fsf@ebb.org> We excitedly announce that the two of us (Richard and Bradley) have been in discussions [1] for a few months to restart, revitalize, and relaunch copyleft-next! Today, GPLv3 turns exactly 18 years old. This month, GPLv2 turned 34 years old. These are both great licenses and we love them. Nevertheless, at least once in a generation, FOSS needs a new approach to strong copyleft. Both of us were involved with the Drafting Committees of GPLv3, and we learned much from what was done right and (frankly) what was done wrong in drafting GPLv3. Indeed, Richard was prescient with copyleft-next — taking lessons learned from the GPLv3 process and doing copyleft license drafting better. So, what Richard began — almost exactly 13 years ago — as an experimental hobby, we relaunch today as a serious and professional effort to create the next generation of copyleft license. As most of you probably know, Bradley works full-time as the policy fellow at Software Freedom Conservancy (SFC) — primarily on issues of copyleft. For the last year, Bradley has been slowly making the case internally to ask SFC to provide resources (in the form of infrastructural support and Bradley's staff time) to relaunch copyleft-next. We are pleased to announce that SFC has agreed! SFC will provide system resources to host our website, mailing list, and Forgejo instance [2] for the copyleft-next project, and Bradley will dedicate at least four focused hours/week to the project. Bradley has also created a Mastodon instance for fediverse updates — so you can also follow: https://fedi.copyleft.org/@next A gracious volunteer years ago donated to Bradley the domain name “copyleft.org” as a place to host work to advance copyleft. We're excited to host all these new resources in that domain name. The beginnings of a new website are now live on https://next.copyleft.org/. Bradley and Richard will serve equally as co-Editors-in-Chief of copyleft-next. We will continue with the Hindering Backchannels Rule (HBR) (formerly known as the Harvey Birdman Rule) and also we will work with haste to add an appropriate and more typical Code of Conduct, too. We'll leave the archives currently found at https://lists.fedorahosted.org/archives/list/copyleft-next at lists.fedorahosted.org/ in place indefinitely, and have a low-priority TODO to migrate the content into the archives of the new list for posterity. Of course, it was always intended that copyleft-next remain an independent project. Both of us will always disclose publicly any (actual or potential) conflicts of interest and our work on copyleft-next will always be in our personal capacities. We ask other contributors to do the same. Relatedly, while SFC has agreed to host and sponsor this project, SFC is currently neutral on the question of whether SFC should be the official license steward of copyleft-next. We have seen various problems regarding stewardship of licenses (even by nonprofit charities), and we expect the issue of “Does copyleft-next need a steward to succeed?” will be an immediate topic of early discussion. We both consider that still an open question. Summary of new URLs for the project: Website: https://next.copyleft.org/ Repository: https://git.copyleft.org/copyleft-next/copyleft-next Mailing List: https://lists.copyleft.org/mailman/listinfo/next next at lists.copyleft.org Fedi/Mastodon: https://fedi.copyleft.org/@next Sincerely, Richard E. Fontana and Bradley M. Kuhn [1] It is possible that some of these discussions did not comply with the Hindering Backchannels Rule, but we plan to post HBR Cure posts in the weeks to come. [2] Long-time aficionados will recall copyleft-next was first hosted on GitHub, moved to Gitorious for software freedom reasons, and when (what we called) the “Gitorious Apocalypse” happened, copyleft-next eventually landed back on GitHub. We both feel hosting this project on GitHub is clearly now a Bad Idea, and moving the repositories to the new Forgejo instance at https://git.copyleft.org/copyleft-next/copyleft-next effectively immediately. We'll sort out making it clear on the old GitHub link that it's deprecated in the first weeks of July 2025. From secureblueadmin at proton.me Mon Jun 30 22:18:19 2025 From: secureblueadmin at proton.me (secureblueadmin) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 22:18:19 +0000 Subject: Questions about copyleft-next Message-ID: I came across this project from a promotional post on Reddit and found it interesting as a FOSS developer. As someone who's not a lawyer, I have a question regarding the license. There's this section, which is an interesting way of preventing (A)GPL/commercial dual licensing: 7. Nullification of Copyleft/Proprietary Dual Licensing If I offer to license, for a fee, a Covered Work under terms other than a license that is OSI-Approved or FSF-Free as of the release date of this License or a numbered version of copyleft-next released by the Copyleft-Next Project, then the license I grant You under section 1 is no longer subject to the conditions in sections 3 through 5. However, this license also says: If the Derived Work includes material licensed under the GPL, You may instead license the Derived Work under the GPL. As far as I can tell, it would seem that if there's some code under copyleft-next that you want to include in your GPL/commercial dual licensed software, you can just create a Derived work that combines `copyleft-next` code with `GPL` code, and then use that derived work (now under the GPL) in your GPL/commercial dual licensed software. Is this not a loophole? Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to read this and bear with my lack of legal knowledge :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From secureblueadmin at proton.me Mon Jun 30 22:37:09 2025 From: secureblueadmin at proton.me (secureblueadmin) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 22:37:09 +0000 Subject: Questions about copyleft-next In-Reply-To: <20250630223235.GS7497@ossguy.com> References: <20250630223235.GS7497@ossguy.com> Message-ID: <_6FaBOLA35A2p2kmw-DAweVXc0VT1e9dTbafUmmVkr_0ijcH1G7VexwySw4FVPmK7425D72hwe2bQwW78CcycGGfbto9RlDwvdPIINMSvtk=@proton.me> Oops, duh! Thanks for the correction, licensing law is not intuitive to me :) On Monday, June 30th, 2025 at 3:32 PM, Denver Gingerich wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 10:18:19PM +0000, secureblueadmin wrote: > > > I came across this project from a promotional post on Reddit and found it interesting as a FOSS developer. As someone who's not a lawyer, I have a question regarding the license. There's this section, which is an interesting way of preventing (A)GPL/commercial dual licensing: > > > > 7. Nullification of Copyleft/Proprietary Dual Licensing > > > > If I offer to license, for a fee, a Covered Work under terms other than > > a license that is OSI-Approved or FSF-Free as of the release date of this > > License or a numbered version of copyleft-next released by the > > Copyleft-Next Project, then the license I grant You under section 1 is no > > longer subject to the conditions in sections 3 through 5. > > > > However, this license also says: > > > > If the Derived Work includes material licensed under the GPL, You may > > instead license the Derived Work under the GPL. > > As far as I can tell, it would seem that if there's some code under copyleft-next that you want to include in your GPL/commercial dual licensed software, you can just create a Derived work that combines `copyleft-next` code with `GPL` code, and then use that derived work (now under the GPL) in your GPL/commercial dual licensed software. Is this not a loophole? > > > Wouldn't the project that you're incorporating it into cease to be "dual licensed" then? It would be the same as incorporating code under GPL into that project - you can't do that, unless the project either loses its "dual" license, or the contributors of that code permit you to use a second license. > > Denver From denver at ossguy.com Mon Jun 30 22:32:35 2025 From: denver at ossguy.com (Denver Gingerich) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2025 22:32:35 +0000 Subject: Questions about copyleft-next In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20250630223235.GS7497@ossguy.com> On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 10:18:19PM +0000, secureblueadmin wrote: > I came across this project from a promotional post on Reddit and found it interesting as a FOSS developer. As someone who's not a lawyer, I have a question regarding the license. There's this section, which is an interesting way of preventing (A)GPL/commercial dual licensing: > > 7. Nullification of Copyleft/Proprietary Dual Licensing > > If I offer to license, for a fee, a Covered Work under terms other than > a license that is OSI-Approved or FSF-Free as of the release date of this > License or a numbered version of copyleft-next released by the > Copyleft-Next Project, then the license I grant You under section 1 is no > longer subject to the conditions in sections 3 through 5. > > However, this license also says: > > If the Derived Work includes material licensed under the GPL, You may > instead license the Derived Work under the GPL. > As far as I can tell, it would seem that if there's some code under copyleft-next that you want to include in your GPL/commercial dual licensed software, you can just create a Derived work that combines `copyleft-next` code with `GPL` code, and then use that derived work (now under the GPL) in your GPL/commercial dual licensed software. Is this not a loophole? Wouldn't the project that you're incorporating it into cease to be "dual licensed" then? It would be the same as incorporating code under GPL into that project - you can't do that, unless the project either loses its "dual" license, or the contributors of that code permit you to use a second license. Denver